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    #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdizzle View Post
    I think the white males are labeled mentally ill because that's generally their motive. I'm not denying Trump spouts racist shit, but I'm getting rather annoyed by people who insist we only label the white guys mentally ill lone wolfs and brown guys terrorists. It's not because of race, it's because of motive. *Generally* the white guys are mentally ill or psychopathic. Look at serial killers, they're generally white. But we're not racist for labeling all the white killers who kill more than 3 people over time serial killers. That's what they are. It so happens that terrorist attacks here in these last few decades are born out of ideological goals stemming from Islam. The perpetrators tend to have darker skin. We're not calling them terrorists BECAUSE they have dark skin. It's irrelevant. (I'm also not denying there are racist ignorant assholes who jump to the conclusion that brown = terrorist, there are because the gen pop is pretty ignorant, on both sides. But factually speaking, the FBI doesn't label a terrorist a terrorist because of the color of their skin).

    and I think mental health is a huge issue, but it obviously won't be fixed by cutting funding. And we had the laws in place to stop this guy from getting weapons, someone just didn't do their job and that's a problem.
    The funny thing is, the brown ones are never considered as mentally ill, even though it turns out that a lot of them are. That’s why they were buying into the ideology in the first place. They often end up drawn into terrorism because they aren’t quite sane or balanced - the same alienation and extreme disconnect between themselves and their victims, the same irrational leap (“I think you’ve done something wrong, therefore you have to die”) fuels the rage for both types, even though the final picture looks a little different.

    The white boys get that benefit of being seen as sick first and politicised second, but the brown ones are sick too.
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by bdizzle View Post
    turns out he was able to purchase the guns because the Air Force didn't report his convictions to the FBI like they were supposed to. If they had, it would have popped up on a background check at the store, and he would have been turned down.
    This makes me insane. I know criminals will find a way to buy guns, etc etc. But, there are rules in place and if people donít abide by them (in this case, Air Force), then it makes buying a gun so much easier!

    I am a proud gun owner. We own a lot and we carry. However, something needs to be done about Facebook sales, not putting convictions into records, and gun show sales. It just makes gun ownership ridiculously easy. Yeah ďno gun salesĒ on fb, but just yesterday on a local page a dude had a 1911 next to a sprinkler with sprinkler for sale $600. Like come on.

    I donít know how to do it with mental health and HIPPA, but Iím sure something can be figured out without a slippery slope.
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by twistertwin View Post
    This makes me insane. I know criminals will find a way to buy guns, etc etc. But, there are rules in place and if people donít abide by them (in this case, Air Force), then it makes buying a gun so much easier!

    I am a proud gun owner. We own a lot and we carry. However, something needs to be done about Facebook sales, not putting convictions into records, and gun show sales. It just makes gun ownership ridiculously easy. Yeah ďno gun salesĒ on fb, but just yesterday on a local page a dude had a 1911 next to a sprinkler with sprinkler for sale $600. Like come on.

    I donít know how to do it with mental health and HIPPA, but Iím sure something can be figured out without a slippery slope.
    I agree. I have had to watch suicidal/homicidal patients with a 72 hour hold on them. When that hold is up, nothing prevents them from walking from the hospital to a gun shop, patient privacy!
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Matchbox View Post
    The funny thing is, the brown ones are never considered as mentally ill, even though it turns out that a lot of them are. That’s why they were buying into the ideology in the first place. They often end up drawn into terrorism because they aren’t quite sane or balanced - the same alienation and extreme disconnect between themselves and their victims, the same irrational leap (“I think you’ve done something wrong, therefore you have to die”) fuels the rage for both types, even though the final picture looks a little different.

    The white boys get that benefit of being seen as sick first and politicised second, but the brown ones are sick too.
    Well.....not quite fair...to judge mental illness based on cultural differences is unfair. And that is one way we determine mental illness, ie value placed on life.
    If one does not place value on life, then one must be mentally ill. Unless one truly beleives that there are things that have higher value than life.

    You could say a belief in a god is a mental illness. Or belief in no god is a mental illness. And all diagnosis starts from that point.
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by bdizzle View Post
    No, actually he's not. A terrorist, and terrorism, is politically, ideologically, or religiously motivated, and intended to coerce the public/government into action based on those political, ideological, or religious goals. Being insane, a psychopath, depressed, or whatever is not the aim required for the terrorism label.

    For the record I think the guy was just a dirt bag. He had done 12 months for DV against his wife and step son.


    I'm not sure what the answer is. This guy was dishonorably discharged and was a convicted felon, so it was illegal for him to own the guns he had. Somehow he got them, and if it was 'legally' (aka through a store or something considering it was illegal no matter what) we need to find out what went wrong and fix that. Texas requires background checks, I went through them, but I also purchased from a large store. I don't know about Colorado (where two of his weapons came from). I need more information.

    eta: he was a bad conduct discharge, not dishonorable, my mistake.
    You are confusing the fact that because a term has one highly technical definition, it can not have other, less technical meanings.
    A person who intends to create fear or terror can be called a terrorist.

    But in this case, it is likely that he was just out to kill his ex mother in law and her friends because he blamed her for the problems in his marriage and life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleMsSunshine View Post
    I think it's really funny when people come on here, and automatically assume that everyone here is a gung-ho, hoo-rah, i-bleed-red-white-and-blue, kiss-my-military-ass, people-in-uniform-can-do-no-wrong, and i'm-entitled-to-everything bitch.
    "RIP Blackie, and Whitey, New Whitey. Goodbye Poopers and Momma Beige and Lady Grey. New Blackie and the Whitey Sisters rule the roost now!"
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Guynavywife View Post
    Well.....not quite fair...to judge mental illness based on cultural differences is unfair. And that is one way we determine mental illness, ie value placed on life.
    If one does not place value on life, then one must be mentally ill. Unless one truly beleives that there are things that have higher value than life.

    You could say a belief in a god is a mental illness. Or belief in no god is a mental illness. And all diagnosis starts from that point.
    You’ve missed my point a little, my heart. I’m not arguing on the basis of cultural difference, because I don’t think it is.

    There are about a billion Muslims in the world who go about their lives peacefully and don’t particularly want to hurt anyone. The number drawn into terrorism and extremism from within that billion is very small, and tends to have a few things in common - they’re usually young, male, profoundly alienated from the people around them (the vast majority of people that groups like Al Quaeda and Daesh/ISIS have hurt are other Muslims, so it’s not just the West they’re lashing out at) and angry. So, so angry. They latch on to extremist rhetoric because it gives them reasons for their rage, it gives them something to connect to so they can hold on to that for stability as they burn the rest.

    If they were young white American men, instead of young brown Middle Eastern men, ISIS would not be an option, but they would still be alienated and angry. Where would that unhealthy, abnormal anger go?

    Think about it. When young, white, American men are abnormally angry at the world...they pick up a gun and start shooting.

    The underlying issue is the same for both groups, but we only think of ONE group as being sick.
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Matchbox View Post
    The funny thing is, the brown ones are never considered as mentally ill, even though it turns out that a lot of them are. That’s why they were buying into the ideology in the first place. They often end up drawn into terrorism because they aren’t quite sane or balanced - the same alienation and extreme disconnect between themselves and their victims, the same irrational leap (“I think you’ve done something wrong, therefore you have to die”) fuels the rage for both types, even though the final picture looks a little different.

    The white boys get that benefit of being seen as sick first and politicised second, but the brown ones are sick too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matchbox View Post
    You’ve missed my point a little, my heart. I’m not arguing on the basis of cultural difference, because I don’t think it is.

    There are about a billion Muslims in the world who go about their lives peacefully and don’t particularly want to hurt anyone. The number drawn into terrorism and extremism from within that billion is very small, and tends to have a few things in common - they’re usually young, male, profoundly alienated from the people around them (the vast majority of people that groups like Al Quaeda and Daesh/ISIS have hurt are other Muslims, so it’s not just the West they’re lashing out at) and angry. So, so angry. They latch on to extremist rhetoric because it gives them reasons for their rage, it gives them something to connect to so they can hold on to that for stability as they burn the rest.

    If they were young white American men, instead of young brown Middle Eastern men, ISIS would not be an option, but they would still be alienated and angry. Where would that unhealthy, abnormal anger go?

    Think about it. When young, white, American men are abnormally angry at the world...they pick up a gun and start shooting.

    The underlying issue is the same for both groups, but we only think of ONE group as being sick.

    that's... not quite how it works. Alienated white men who latch on to terrorist organizations are labeled terrorists.

    There are numerous reasons why Muslims become radicalized (why anyone becomes radicalized really). It can be mental illness, but generally it's actually not (though overseas there's obviously a hardship in diagnosing mental illness and getting an accurate picture). It's social pressures, religious fanaticism (which isn't considered a mental illness), financial reasons, you name it. Again, people who go and commit large mass murders in the name of an ideological or religious goal aren't called terrorists because they're brown. Their skin color is irrelevant. It has to do with why they did what they did. They have a larger motive whereas these "white boys" literally do what they do because they're ill, not because they have some big grand political or religious motivation.


    and yes, I'm using the technical terms. Because those terms matter in terms of prevention and policy making. It matters. I spent my entire graduate degree studying this stuff. It matters damnit


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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by bdizzle View Post
    that's... not quite how it works. Alienated white men who latch on to terrorist organizations are labeled terrorists.

    There are numerous reasons why Muslims become radicalized (why anyone becomes radicalized really). It can be mental illness, but generally it's actually not (though overseas there's obviously a hardship in diagnosing mental illness and getting an accurate picture). It's social pressures, religious fanaticism (which isn't considered a mental illness), financial reasons, you name it. Again, people who go and commit large mass murders in the name of an ideological or religious goal aren't called terrorists because they're brown. Their skin color is irrelevant. It has to do with why they did what they did. They have a larger motive whereas these "white boys" literally do what they do because they're ill, not because they have some big grand political or religious motivation.


    and yes, I'm using the technical terms. Because those terms matter in terms of prevention and policy making. It matters. I spent my entire graduate degree studying this stuff. It matters damnit
    I can honestly say I haven’t heard of one being labelled as a terrorist for a very long time - not even Dylan Roof, who went for a race war/white supremacy rhetoric when he shot up that congregation. Even he got the “mentally ill” flag rather than the “radicalised as all hell” flag when the media discussed him, and he was explicit. He had a political manifesto and everything.

    I bow to your greater knowledge in general, but I DO think there’s sometimes a difference in media coverage and general perception depending on what the perpetrator looks like. At the very least, laymen seem a lot more willing to speculate that it might be terrorism (the police might not comment, but Joe Public thinks what he thinks) when the motive isn’t yet clear but the guy is brown.
    Last edited by Matchbox; 11-08-2017 at 04:59 PM.
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Matchbox View Post
    I can honestly say I haven’t heard of one being labelled as a terrorist for a very long time - not even Dylan Roof, who went for a race war/white supremacy rhetoric when he shot up that congregation. Even he got the “mentally ill” flag rather than the “radicalised as all hell” flag when the media discussed him, and he was explicit. He had a political manifesto and everything.
    Dylan Roof shot black people because he was a racist. He was charged with hate crimes. He wasn't attempting to coerce the population/government into doing anything. Did you read his manifesto? It wasn't political. It was a bunch of racist bullshit divided up racial categories and one weird part about false patriotism and how soldiers are full of shit. It had nothing to do with political ideology. He was just a racist dumbass.


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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bdizzle View Post
    Dylan Roof shot black people because he was a racist. He was charged with hate crimes. He wasn't attempting to coerce the population/government into doing anything. Did you read his manifesto? It wasn't political. It was a bunch of racist bullshit divided up racial categories and one weird part about false patriotism and how soldiers are full of shit. It had nothing to do with political ideology. He was just a racist dumbass.
    I did read it. He was a racist dumbass.

    He, however, saw himself and his actions as political. He wasn’t very good at it, but he thought he was - putting out a manifesto is in many ways a politicised act, and his statements to the feds and in court back this up. He wanted (and thought he would get) a much broader race war, not just himself as a one off act. He said he wanted the law to change to bring back segregation, which is definitely a political thing.

    What role does someone’s self-perception of their motives/reasons play in categorising them, even if their self-perception is warped?
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