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Thread: Take a Knee

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    #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KittenMittens View Post
    I'd like to hear your opinion though, B! Your first post was really cryptic and after all, it's a debates thread where differing (not necessarily irrelevant) opinions are supposed to go.



    hahahahah what even!? People on FB are the worst.

    I'm conflicted. I honestly and truly see both sides. Police brutality and government intrusion is a huge problem. It's a problem that disproportionately affects black communities. It's hard to feel as though there is justice when these big cases end with no conviction, even though there very well may not be enough evidence to convict. I believe black lives matter because all lives matter, and historically black lives haven't been included in that all lives matter part so we need to have a conversation about why that is and how we fix it.

    I think it speaks to a sort of privilege to demand entertainment remain politics free. It's easy to want that when your life isn't being disrupted.
    I think it's ludicrous to demand a certain response to symbol that many feel doesn't represent them (ludicrous even if it does, we don't live in a dictatorship).

    But I completely understand that the flag and or national anthem is a symbol of American strength and freedom to a good portion of this country and the world. I understand that it feels as though they are disrespecting the ideals those things stand for, like when someone burns the flag or steps on it. To me the flag (and or anthem) represents what our country should be, the ideals it was founded on, even if we fall so far short of living up to those ideals pretty much on a regular basis. Our men and women wear that flag into battle, and they come home underneath it. It's the representation of America, it's a symbol. Same with the national anthem. It's a source of pride, because despite our flaws as a country, there is no place on earth like the U.S. We got some things wrong, but we also got so many things right. And I think its okay to to have pride in those things and to continue to even as we strive to be better than we were. I feel like disrespecting those things ignores the history America has had in always striving to live up to the fact all men are created equal. Perhaps we didn't start out that way, but what other nation on this planet has had the history that the U.S has, the rights that we have?

    It's complicated for me, personally. But none of that matters necessarily. Regardless of what I think personally of their protest or the way they think, I support their right to peaceful protest.


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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by HisJuliet View Post
    I guess I'm #overit My facebook is political minefield because I live in the heart of Trump county, but I have a lot of liberal friends from outside the area. Personally, I'm tired of politics in entertainment. Movies/professional sports used to be an escape, now there is politics at every turn. But, I understand that they are people too and have the right to their opinions. So, I guess, they have every right to do it. Heck, pre 9/11, the players weren't even on the field for the anthem.

    My issues is that I understand that the basis for the protest is racial disparity and poor treatment of black persons by the police specifically. But what I don't understand is what it will take to end the protest. I would gladly accept someone informing me of this, because I don't understand. I know the goal is to raise awareness and get the police to treat all persons with dignity and respect, but I don't know what it will take to say Mission Accomplished KWIM?
    The short answer is that "Mission Accomplished" happens when the body count goes down.

    Police departments in the US shot about a thousand people dead last year, disproportionately black ones. This does not include deaths in custody like Freddie Gray, it does not include incidents of violence that cripple but don't kill (in one recent incident a mentally disabled man had the police called on him, the man's carer came out to try and defuse the situation and get him back inside safely since he knew the guy wouldn't be able to understand/comply with police instructions as most people would...and the police shot the carer as he lay on the ground with his hands in the air, doing everything they told him to do; when asked why he'd taken the shot, one of them actually said "I don't know") and it does not include mistakes like that time an agency in Georgia sent a SWAT raid to the wrong house, dropped a flashbang grenade in a baby's crib and nearly killed it.

    That figure of a thousand is just fatal police shootings. When that number drops, and when police are held to account for them, the rage will go away. As it is, people are dying and their communities are not happy. They think this is too many.
    Last edited by Matchbox; 09-25-2017 at 06:25 PM.
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    #23
    honestly, I was against Colin K.... being an ignorant American from the midwest, I did NOT understand.
    I was at work watching the Phillando Castile video.... and it made me sick.
    Let me share a little more than I probably should.... I was pulled over, I had my concealed carry, and, let's add a fact I'm ASHAMED of and would not ever repeat---- I was buzzed.
    I was pulled over for a head light out, which is similar to what the cop told Castile he was pulled over for (even though audio from the cruiser states he thought Castile "looked like someone who could have committed robbery."
    I was careful to breath away from the cop, other than that, it went great, I probably could have gotten his number.

    He was shot.
    He was sober.
    In front of his child (who could have easily been a victim as well).

    I asked myself, is there a better way to protest? to bring attention to this.... atrocity?

    I got nothing. Seems like a pretty good plan to me.
    Kneel away.
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    #24
    I think it's ridiculous that people get so upset about it. I mean it's their right to flip their shit over it if they want but the idea that someone quietly kneeling with their hand over their heart is seeewwww awful to the country ... I don't know it just makes me smh. It's not only peaceful, but it's also not disruptive ... they're not being noisy, or violent, or interfering with anyone else's salute to the anthem.

    The other thing that annoys me is that it's not 100% on one side or the other. I mean I get it that someone could say that for example, as a veteran than feel *personally* disrespected when someone kneels for the anthem. But there are tons of veterans out there (DH included) who don't feel that way, and there's even been veterans who are following suit and taking a knee in solidarity with the players. And again, DH can say he doesn't personally feel disrespected by there are tons of veterans that do, too. So I think it's not just one side vs. the other it's much more complicated than that. But I guess it's easier to frame it as pro athletes vs. veterans. But there's a major diversity of viewpoints, I mean there's also a bunch of football players that don't like the take a knee thing and are vocal about that too.

    On a personal level, I think there are fewer things more patriotic, more American, than exercising one's freedom of speech. I read something someone shared on Twitter about how it's just as important to salute the flag as it is to make what the flag stands for something people want to salute, and I agree, and I think what they are doing is important.
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Matchbox View Post
    The short answer is that "Mission Accomplished" happens when the body count goes down.

    Police departments in the US shot about a thousand people dead last year, disproportionately black ones. This does not include deaths in custody like Freddie Gray, it does not include incidents of violence that cripple but don't kill (in one recent incident a mentally disabled man had the police called on him, the man's carer came out to try and defuse the situation and get him back inside safely since he knew the guy wouldn't be able to understand/comply with police instructions as most people would...and the police shot the carer as he lay on the ground with his hands in the air, doing everything they told him to do; when asked why he'd taken the shot, one of them actually said "I don't know") and it does not include mistakes like that time an agency in Georgia sent a SWAT raid to the wrong house, dropped a flashbang grenade in a baby's crib and nearly killed it.

    That figure of a thousand is just fatal police shootings. When that number drops, and when police are held to account for them, the rage will go away. As it is, people are dying and their communities are not happy. They think this is too many.
    Just curious, how do you know about all of this in such great detail all the way from Australia is our news that far reaching or have you taken a special interest in the topic? (hope this doesn't come off as rude, I mean it more like I'm impressed because even a lot of Americans aren't so well informed)
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Just curious, how do you know about all of this in such great detail all the way from Australia is our news that far reaching or have you taken a special interest in the topic? (hope this doesn't come off as rude, I mean it more like I'm impressed because even a lot of Americans aren't so well informed)
    Short answer? I watch the news.

    The long answer is that you're a superpower. You're THE superpower. Your news and your media reaches EVERYWHERE. Even if I wanted to ignore current events in the United States, I wouldn't be able to completely shut it out. When you're sharing the bed with an elephant, you need to know which way he's turning over, no?

    We have similar tensions here, also. Not identical - the police rarely shoot at all here, so the rage is more about unexplained deaths in custody than shootings, more Freddie Gray than Philando Castile - but the disproportionate focus on particular ethnic groups has made people angry here too.
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by HerAirmansLove View Post
    I mean, I would have gotten the same information if you had omitted the latter point, so apparently, it's relevant in some way. I may have interpretted it incorrectly but I felt it was extremely passive-aggressive.
    I think what she is saying is she respects the form of the protest, regardless what the message is.
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Matchbox View Post
    Short answer? I watch the news.

    The long answer is that you're a superpower. You're THE superpower. Your news and your media reaches EVERYWHERE. Even if I wanted to ignore current events in the United States, I wouldn't be able to completely shut it out. When you're sharing the bed with an elephant, you need to know which way he's turning over, no?

    We have similar tensions here, also. Not identical - the police rarely shoot at all here, so the rage is more about unexplained deaths in custody than shootings, more Freddie Gray than Philando Castile - but the disproportionate focus on particular ethnic groups has made people angry here too.
    Huh, interesting! You have to kinda try to follow foreign news here, like unless something really serious is going on mainstream news doesn't mention it. I guess we're self centered.
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Huh, interesting! You have to kinda try to follow foreign news here, like unless something really serious is going on mainstream news doesn't mention it. I guess we're self centered.
    It tends to vary whether or not the news mentions much detail about international affairs. Near neighbours, yes, so we get news about Indonesia, PNG, Timor-Leste. Major players like you, always, because a lot of what happens to you will eventually affect us. Countries we have no obvious reason to care about, much less so - if I want to know the news in Buenos Aires (and I do, I have family there still) I have to look for that.

    It IS common to get international news broadcasts though. There's a channel called SBS that specialises in somewhat niche programming, and they often have complete radio or TV broadcasts of foreign news programs - if you can speak the language, you can watch the news. My four year old is weirdly enthralled by the daily news from Madrid.
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Guynavywife View Post
    I think what she is saying is she respects the form of the protest, regardless what the message is.
    yep.


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