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Thread: How much Domestic Surveillance are you ok with?

  1. MilitarySOS Jewel
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    #11
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    I feel there's too much already.
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Guynavywife View Post
    Hatter and others, and who is to decide what is"suspicious" behavior? Or government has a history of over reaching, spying on political enemies, and persecuting those it does not agree with, not based on crimes, but on political belief.

    The "I have nothing to hide" mentality is ridiculous. You have a certain right to privacy. A few years ago, the government tried targeting people based on the books they were borrowing from the library. We have bevome no better then many of the other countries that spy on its citizens. And the attitude that it is ok because it is for our own good is terrifying.
    Whatever brings someone into their focus. It could be buying large amounts of fertilizer with no landscaping company or large property. It could be checking out several books from the library on plastic explosives and aircraft design. It could be your license plate being seen idling in front of the elementary school on a daily basis when you have no kids and no association with anyone who works there. The list goes on and on. None of those things ARE crimes in and of themselves-- case in point would be the people being tried for the library books. It's not a crime yet; just watch them and see if it leads to one. One of the qualifiers that I listed was "As long as you don't start punishing me for things that aren't even breaking the law, I don't care," so I remain firm on that. You can monitor someone, but if they aren't breaking the law, then you don't punish them. Period, end of story. The guy could be having an affair, but unless he has a clearance (so it's a safety hazard) or he's in the military (and so it's illegal), you don't report it or do anything about it. You only report behavior that could be leading up to or linked with a crime. btw, by "reported", I mean outside of the organization, namely to the judicial system.

    I would not give a care if the government wanted to monitor me. In fact, I'm positive that they do when they're checking out my husband to renew his clearance. I'm not breaking the law or planning to in any way, shape, or form, so it doesn't bother me.
    ​​​

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    #13
    Homeland Security 'Fusion' Center Director: We're Not Spying On Americans... Just Anti-Government Americans | Techdirt
    With primary sources in article.

    Now, with those who believe they have "nothing to hide" please answer the following questions:
    1) Have you ever posted here in a protected forum? If so, why, if you have nothing to hide?
    2) Do you have any privacy settings on your facebook page? If so, why?
    3) What it your husband/SO's first and last name?
    4) What is your first and last name?
    If you do not want to answer numbers 3 and 4, why not, if you have nothing to hide?

    One mistake people make is the difference between secrets, nothing to hide, and privacy. I don't commit crimes, but there is a lot I don't want the government to know. Why not?
    1) None of its business.
    2) The government is a lousy protector of my information.
    3) Our government has a history of abusing its information and power.
    4) Our government has a history of persecuting those who disagree with the people in power.

    The constitution protects my right to privacy, and to be free from government intrusion. There is no better reason for that for me to protect that right.

    Oh, and for those who don't mind the government monitoring us, how many of you are against national gun registrations and mandatory background checks for those who want to purchase firearms?
    If you want my opinion on your relationship or life issues, just ask Villanelle!
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleMsSunshine View Post
    I think it's really funny when people come on here, and automatically assume that everyone here is a gung-ho, hoo-rah, i-bleed-red-white-and-blue, kiss-my-military-ass, people-in-uniform-can-do-no-wrong, and i'm-entitled-to-everything bitch.
    "RIP Blackie, and Whitey, New Whitey. Goodbye Poopers and Momma Beige and Lady Grey. New Blackie and the Whitey Sisters rule the roost now!"
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    #14
    http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/s0803b/final.pdf
    Here is our own Justice Departments report on the FBI's abuse of the limited power it was given to gather information on us.
    If you want my opinion on your relationship or life issues, just ask Villanelle!
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleMsSunshine View Post
    I think it's really funny when people come on here, and automatically assume that everyone here is a gung-ho, hoo-rah, i-bleed-red-white-and-blue, kiss-my-military-ass, people-in-uniform-can-do-no-wrong, and i'm-entitled-to-everything bitch.
    "RIP Blackie, and Whitey, New Whitey. Goodbye Poopers and Momma Beige and Lady Grey. New Blackie and the Whitey Sisters rule the roost now!"
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojai View Post
    First thing that popped into my head was this:

    Surveillance unit produced no terrorism leads, NYPD says - CNN.com

    6 years of monitoring those scary Muslims in NYC (including computer surveillance) and ... nothing to show for it.

    I mean ... if there were reasonable cause to suspect people (NOT just "being Muslim" or "happens to be included in this giant pool of data I intercepted") then I could possibly get behind it, but as it is it seems like a huge waste of time, resources, and goodwill. This is not a case where I think trading freedom for security is a good idea.



    WarSnoopy do you happen to have a link to that documentary you watched?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guynavywife View Post
    Hatter and others, and who is to decide what is"suspicious" behavior? Or government has a history of over reaching, spying on political enemies, and persecuting those it does not agree with, not based on crimes, but on political belief.

    The "I have nothing to hide" mentality is ridiculous. You have a certain right to privacy. A few years ago, the government tried targeting people based on the books they were borrowing from the library. We have bevome no better then many of the other countries that spy on its citizens. And the attitude that it is ok because it is for our own good is terrifying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guynavywife View Post
    Homeland Security 'Fusion' Center Director: We're Not Spying On Americans... Just Anti-Government Americans | Techdirt
    With primary sources in article.

    Now, with those who believe they have "nothing to hide" please answer the following questions:
    1) Have you ever posted here in a protected forum? If so, why, if you have nothing to hide?
    2) Do you have any privacy settings on your facebook page? If so, why?
    3) What it your husband/SO's first and last name?
    4) What is your first and last name?
    If you do not want to answer numbers 3 and 4, why not, if you have nothing to hide?

    One mistake people make is the difference between secrets, nothing to hide, and privacy. I don't commit crimes, but there is a lot I don't want the government to know. Why not?
    1) None of its business.
    2) The government is a lousy protector of my information.
    3) Our government has a history of abusing its information and power.
    4) Our government has a history of persecuting those who disagree with the people in power.

    The constitution protects my right to privacy, and to be free from government intrusion. There is no better reason for that for me to protect that right.

    Oh, and for those who don't mind the government monitoring us, how many of you are against national gun registrations and mandatory background checks for those who want to purchase firearms?
    with all the above.

    It absolutely amazes me how much some people have bought into the government's fear mongering campaigns to expand their powers and how lightly some folks hand over their personal rights and freedoms
  6. MilitarySOS Jewel
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Guynavywife View Post
    Homeland Security 'Fusion' Center Director: We're Not Spying On Americans... Just Anti-Government Americans | Techdirt
    With primary sources in article.

    Now, with those who believe they have "nothing to hide" please answer the following questions:
    1) Have you ever posted here in a protected forum? If so, why, if you have nothing to hide?
    2) Do you have any privacy settings on your facebook page? If so, why?
    3) What it your husband/SO's first and last name?
    4) What is your first and last name?
    If you do not want to answer numbers 3 and 4, why not, if you have nothing to hide?

    One mistake people make is the difference between secrets, nothing to hide, and privacy. I don't commit crimes, but there is a lot I don't want the government to know. Why not?
    1) None of its business.
    2) The government is a lousy protector of my information.
    3) Our government has a history of abusing its information and power.
    4) Our government has a history of persecuting those who disagree with the people in power.

    The constitution protects my right to privacy, and to be free from government intrusion. There is no better reason for that for me to protect that right.

    Oh, and for those who don't mind the government monitoring us, how many of you are against national gun registrations and mandatory background checks for those who want to purchase firearms?
    1) Yes, because it's personal information. If that got out and was broadcast, oh well. I'm not ashamed of anything I've said and I'll own it.
    2) Yes, because I don't want creepy people to find me. I don't think of the government as a creepy person who will cause me or my family physical harm.
    3) My husband is more private than I am, so I will respect him and not share that information.
    4) Relates back to my husband. Obviously, we share the same last name.

    The problem I have with gun registries is that they have been publicly displayed and exploited. Not that they exist period. If they find a firearm abandoned at a crime scene, I think it would be GREAT if they could look up the serial number and see who it belongs to. I'm totally down with compulsory background checks. I say go for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guynavywife View Post
    http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/s0803b/final.pdf
    Here is our own Justice Departments report on the FBI's abuse of the limited power it was given to gather information on us.
    I understand that our country (in part, obviously, since the above is a case of government vs. government) protects the right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. Which is why I listed indicators of possible issues that would trigger surveillance. I think that they should have to get a warrant to surveil, I just think that it should be pretty easy to get said warrant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZivaD View Post
    with all the above.

    It absolutely amazes me how much some people have bought into the government's fear mongering campaigns to expand their powers and how lightly some folks hand over their personal rights and freedoms
    Whoa there, Kujo. Fear-mongering campaigns? Maybe I just feel fairly apathetic about government surveillance. If the government isn't punishing me for doing something other than breaking the law, and if they're monitoring me because I did something legitimately sketchy, power to them. Go for it. I'd want them to watch someone else who had put a blip on their radar, why not me? I was a registered libertarian for four of the last five years-- this just isn't something that bothers me.
    ​​​

    “Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.” -- Carl Sagan

  7. MilitarySOS Jewel
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    #17
    honestly i could care less.... i have nothing to hide so idc if the gov't listens to what i say or reads what i send....and id rather they catch homegrown terrorists before the have the ability to commit attacks that could hurt anyone.
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by katinahat View Post
    1) Yes, because it's personal information. If that got out and was broadcast, oh well. I'm not ashamed of anything I've said and I'll own it.
    2) Yes, because I don't want creepy people to find me. I don't think of the government as a creepy person who will cause me or my family physical harm.
    3) My husband is more private than I am, so I will respect him and not share that information.
    4) Relates back to my husband. Obviously, we share the same last name.

    [snipped]

    I understand that our country (in part, obviously, since the above is a case of government vs. government) protects the right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. Which is why I listed indicators of possible issues that would trigger surveillance. I think that they should have to get a warrant to surveil, I just think that it should be pretty easy to get said warrant.



    Whoa there, Kujo. Fear-mongering campaigns? Maybe I just feel fairly apathetic about government surveillance. If the government isn't punishing me for doing something other than breaking the law, and if they're monitoring me because I did something legitimately sketchy, power to them. Go for it. I'd want them to watch someone else who had put a blip on their radar, why not me? I was a registered libertarian for four of the last five years-- this just isn't something that bothers me.
    1) According to prior arguments above, if your husband did nothing wrong, why does he need his privacy? Answer, because there is difference between privacy secrecy and criminal behavior.
    2) But the government is NOT getting warrants for its spying activities on US citizens, and THAT is the problem.
    3)What makes someone "sketchy?" Stereotyping? he is Muslim?
    4) http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/op...anted=all&_r=0 and if you look into some of the "plots" further, you find that in one case, the target actually called the FBI to report the "informer" for possible terrorist activities. They wanted nothing to do with him. And the FBI ended up arresting those people.
    Oh, and the bomb in the car in Times Square. The FBI had NO clue.
    Our government agencies are based on continued budget justification. The FBI wants to keep its money coming in, they need to justify it.
    Also, we think of the "government" as a person. It is not. It is made up of people. And those people I do not trust.
    If you want my opinion on your relationship or life issues, just ask Villanelle!
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleMsSunshine View Post
    I think it's really funny when people come on here, and automatically assume that everyone here is a gung-ho, hoo-rah, i-bleed-red-white-and-blue, kiss-my-military-ass, people-in-uniform-can-do-no-wrong, and i'm-entitled-to-everything bitch.
    "RIP Blackie, and Whitey, New Whitey. Goodbye Poopers and Momma Beige and Lady Grey. New Blackie and the Whitey Sisters rule the roost now!"
  9. was ncgirl
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    #19
    I think it is ridiculous that were have essentially no right to privacy from our government. However, I realized my "right to privacy" was gone a while ago because of DHs job.

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...n_you_hear_me/

    I think this is completely crazy. When they make my husband has to turn off his phone and take out the battery at work you know it is bad. One government agency not wanting to be listened to by another. It makes me wonder why we don't take the same procaution. It isn't about doing something illegal, obviously they aren't doing anything illegal at work, it is about controlling who has specific information about you and your life.


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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Guynavywife View Post
    1) According to prior arguments above, if your husband did nothing wrong, why does he need his privacy? Answer, because there is difference between privacy secrecy and criminal behavior.
    2) But the government is NOT getting warrants for its spying activities on US citizens, and THAT is the problem.
    3)What makes someone "sketchy?" Stereotyping? he is Muslim?
    4) http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/op...anted=all&_r=0 and if you look into some of the "plots" further, you find that in one case, the target actually called the FBI to report the "informer" for possible terrorist activities. They wanted nothing to do with him. And the FBI ended up arresting those people.
    Oh, and the bomb in the car in Times Square. The FBI had NO clue.
    Our government agencies are based on continued budget justification. The FBI wants to keep its money coming in, they need to justify it.
    Also, we think of the "government" as a person. It is not. It is made up of people. And those people I do not trust.
    1) My husband's privacy desires are more due to PERSEC involved with his job than any personal desire.
    2) Well, that's an issue. I don't agree with unsanctioned monitoring-- I just believe that it should be a fairly simple process to get monitoring approved, which many times it isn't.
    3) I listed a few examples above, but I'll reiterate them: "It could be buying large amounts of fertilizer with no landscaping company or large property. It could be checking out several books from the library on plastic explosives and aircraft design. It could be your license plate being seen idling in front of the elementary school on a daily basis when you have no kids and no association with anyone who works there. The list goes on and on."
    4) That sounds like an issue with the agency and its techniques, not with monitoring itself. You cannot know everything. You simply cannot. You put out as wide a net as you can, but sometimes things will still slip through. You just hope that you catch as much as possible.
    I guess that's where we differ. I do question the government, but that questioning is based around a basic sense of trust that they have our best interests at heart. The government is a multi-faceted entity, but it is a single entity nonetheless.
    ​​​

    “Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.” -- Carl Sagan

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